Umbrel, RTL, Thunderhub showing different amount of satoshis available

Good day and thank you for the hard work. I’m facing a bit of a weird issue, that’s probably just a GUI glitch, but I googled a bit and can’t see anything relevant posted. If this is resolved somewhere else, please excuse my bad google-fu and point me to the right direction

So, I’ve set up a node on a dedicated laptop, a Toshiba L100 running an up-to-date Kubuntu. It’s plugged into my router with an ethernet cable and with an external HDD for use exclusively by Umbrel. Specs are up to par, and has been wortking flawlessly so far.

Today I’ve noticed that the satoshis available to the LN, are reported differently between the Umbrell app, RTL app and Thunderhub.

Umbrel shows 84049 satoshis available, RTL shows 43145 and Thunderhub shows 43146. I suppose the 1 satoshi difference between RTL & Thunderhub could be a rounding error, since some routing fees the node collected were in the millisat range, but those two apps and Umbrel itself show a difference of a little over 40k satoshis.

Does anyone have a clue why that would happen ?
TIA

It’s simple: go to RTL and in onchain wallet you will see some UTXOs that are still not confirmed. When you have a pending opening channel or tx that wasn’t already confirmed.

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hey @DarthCoin, thank you for a prompt reply. I just doublechecked, there are no pending/unconfirmed UTXOs anywhere, nor any channels pending open/close

the latest Tx already has 300+ confirms, it was a channel close.

I did try to move those funds, I tried sending 80k and 40k in two different invoices, which both failed due to “insufficient funds”

It is unclear your issue, please specify:

  • what you did step by step to end up like this (details are important)
  • where did you see that balance, onchain or LN?
  • did you restart your node?

I’m not sure where to start, I’ve been using it for three months without issues. I’ve made some LN & onchain payments, and had some incoming onchain txs. I only noticed it a couple of weeks ago, while trying to test LNTerminal app, I though it was me not remembering the amounts correctly, and it only dawned to me today when I updated and opened all those apps together.

I did use all three apps to open channels, meaning I opened channels via the Umbrel menu, via RTL and via Thunderhub

I just updated the node two hours ago to latest, but the issue existed before the update. The latest action taken was a cooperative channel close, 330 blocks ago.

The different amounts are shown in the LN side, onchain is shown correct in all three apps.

I have restarted the node twice in the last 30 days, mostly because I did an apt dist-upgrade to the machine, the node itself has never had any issues, lags etc

I think the difference is in commitment fees. Umbrel dashboard is displaying balance without those fees. Commitment fee can be quite high 20-25k sats per channel, it’s reserved for force closing transaction, which must be confirmed as soon as possible.

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I would second @Vilas1979. Noted the difference in accounting as well, and this worked out to be the difference after going through the math on all my open channels.

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I understand that Umbrel simplify things for new users, they try to open small 100k channel and 100k is spendable. I think it’s feature, not bug. For advanced users there are TH or RTL which shows accurate spendable balace. TH in channel overview also round numbers so 980k is rounded up to 1M which is the same as in Umbrel dashboard. From my observation, commit fee can vary, when on-chain fees are high, you can actually spend less on LN as more funds are locked for commit fee. Correct me if I am wrong in this.

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@Vilas1979 @Sedge68 Thank you for your comments and taking the time to reply.

If I understand this correctly, you’re saying that TH/RTL are not showing the fees that would be required to close the channel, an amount that Umbrel app itself accounts in the total amount available ?

And if so, would it make sense that the amount changes over time ? Because yesterday Umbrel reported 84049 satoshis available, RTL had 43145 and Thunderhub had 43146

Today, Umbrel shows the same amount, while RTL & TH report 45372 and 45373 respectively

Sorry if I sound daft, I’m just learning more.

PS, sorry for my bad english, it’s not my native language

Screenshot_20210511_132507
Screenshot_20210511_132701

Yes, amount is changing, when on-chain fees skyrocket, commit fee skyrocket too. They are locked just for worst case scenario when channel is force closed. Not sure how it works and is calculated. Just my observation.

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I see, it makes sense

Again thank you for your time and comments. I’ll mark your comment as a solution to this

Me too😏